Comments on: Community colleges are “over empathetic”?! – Reactions to the Community College Survey of Student Engagement (CCSSE) http://www.theother85percent.com/2009/01/community-colleges-are-%e2%80%9cover-empathetic%e2%80%9d-reactions-to-the-community-college-survey-of-student-engagement-ccsse/ Working adults and the new world of higher education Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:48:27 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Mike Offerman http://www.theother85percent.com/2009/01/community-colleges-are-%e2%80%9cover-empathetic%e2%80%9d-reactions-to-the-community-college-survey-of-student-engagement-ccsse/comment-page-1/#comment-2940 Mike Offerman Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:18:13 +0000 http://www.theother85percent.com/?p=114#comment-2940 Marian, thanks for taking time to comment and to share your thoughts on Dr. McClenney's work. I am certain that she has done great work and would not be in the role she is without having done very good things. But, I am simply reacting to what she is quoted as having proposed. And questioning the relevance of her suggestion for adult and part-time students. That is not to denigrate her work, the CCSSE, or an emphasis on engagement. But, when recommendations are made that appear to assume service to a "traditional" audience without addressing the impact on adult and part-time students, I think those recommendations should be challenged. Such challenging is not intended to nor does it diminish other good work by Dr. McClenney. Instead, such challenging and criticism is offered in the spirit of scholarly debate. And, I know that is the spirit that drove you to comment. Again, thanks for taking the time. Mike Marian, thanks for taking time to comment and to share your thoughts on Dr. McClenney’s work. I am certain that she has done great work and would not be in the role she is without having done very good things. But, I am simply reacting to what she is quoted as having proposed. And questioning the relevance of her suggestion for adult and part-time students. That is not to denigrate her work, the CCSSE, or an emphasis on engagement. But, when recommendations are made that appear to assume service to a “traditional” audience without addressing the impact on adult and part-time students, I think those recommendations should be challenged. Such challenging is not intended to nor does it diminish other good work by Dr. McClenney. Instead, such challenging and criticism is offered in the spirit of scholarly debate. And, I know that is the spirit that drove you to comment. Again, thanks for taking the time.

Mike

]]> By: Marian E. McGorry http://www.theother85percent.com/2009/01/community-colleges-are-%e2%80%9cover-empathetic%e2%80%9d-reactions-to-the-community-college-survey-of-student-engagement-ccsse/comment-page-1/#comment-2936 Marian E. McGorry Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:28:05 +0000 http://www.theother85percent.com/?p=114#comment-2936 Mike With all due respect, focusing on Kay McClenney’s comments for more instructors “to require study groups” (Molz, 2008, para. 7) trivializes Dr. McClenney’s outstanding research and efforts to improve the success of community college students nationally. Dr. McClenney has been at the forefront identifying key issues impacting community colleges and student success. Presently, I am at the beginning of the dissertation phase of my doctoral journey. All of my coursework leading to this stage of my journey has included elements of Dr. McClenney’s research findings and recommendations and are too numerous to cite in this venue. Student engagement leads to student success and is the foundation of Dr. McClenney’s message for community colleges. As an administrator at an urban community college where we have been participating in the national Achieving the Dream initiative funded by the Lumina Foundation since 2006, our institution has benefited from many of Dr. McClenney’s recommendations that are based on the outcomes of CCSSE (Community College Survey of Student Engagement) and other research focused on student completion and success at community colleges. Our college has participated in CCSSE; our institutional data aligns with the findings from the national survey, which provide us with the impetus to develop selective strategies to improve student engagement. I am truly intrigued by Wally’s insight about the empathy factor with his substantive comments. Marian Mike

With all due respect, focusing on Kay McClenney’s comments for more instructors “to require study groups” (Molz, 2008, para. 7) trivializes Dr. McClenney’s outstanding research and efforts to improve the success of community college students nationally. Dr. McClenney has been at the forefront identifying key issues impacting community colleges and student success.

Presently, I am at the beginning of the dissertation phase of my doctoral journey. All of my coursework leading to this stage of my journey has included elements of Dr. McClenney’s research findings and recommendations and are too numerous to cite in this venue.

Student engagement leads to student success and is the foundation of Dr. McClenney’s message for community colleges. As an administrator at an urban community college where we have been participating in the national Achieving the Dream initiative funded by the Lumina Foundation since 2006, our institution has benefited from many of Dr. McClenney’s recommendations that are based on the outcomes of CCSSE (Community College Survey of Student Engagement) and other research focused on student completion and success at community colleges. Our college has participated in CCSSE; our institutional data aligns with the findings from the national survey, which provide us with the impetus to develop selective strategies to improve student engagement.

I am truly intrigued by Wally’s insight about the empathy factor with his substantive comments.

Marian

]]> By: Mike Offerman http://www.theother85percent.com/2009/01/community-colleges-are-%e2%80%9cover-empathetic%e2%80%9d-reactions-to-the-community-college-survey-of-student-engagement-ccsse/comment-page-1/#comment-2933 Mike Offerman Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:53:48 +0000 http://www.theother85percent.com/?p=114#comment-2933 Wally, thanks for taking time to comment and adding substance to our shared concern. Mike Wally, thanks for taking time to comment and adding substance to our shared concern.

Mike

]]> By: Wally Boston http://www.theother85percent.com/2009/01/community-colleges-are-%e2%80%9cover-empathetic%e2%80%9d-reactions-to-the-community-college-survey-of-student-engagement-ccsse/comment-page-1/#comment-2932 Wally Boston Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:44:47 +0000 http://www.theother85percent.com/?p=114#comment-2932 Mike: I agree with you 100 percent. In fact, Braxton, Hirschy, and McClendon (2004) proposed a theory of departure in commuter colleges that keys off of three of Tinto's original thirteen testable propositions in student departure. The external environment of the student (which you cite) which includes finances, support, work, family and community and the internal campus environment which includes academic communities, cost, institutional integrity, and institutional commitment to student welfare are the two most influential areas for the student's initial commitment to the institution and their subsequent commitment. According to their work, "students with the personality trait of empathy tend to be more likely to depart from commuter colleges and universities." Based on that research, the students desiring empathy are checking out and the ones left are predominantly working-adult learners who have little use for added burdens of attending classes at inconvenient times or being required to attend an in-person group seminar. Spending more productive time during the class itself which is what the adult learner struggles to adjust his/her schedule to meet would be more productive. Thanks for pointing this out. Wally Mike:

I agree with you 100 percent. In fact, Braxton, Hirschy, and McClendon (2004) proposed a theory of departure in commuter colleges that keys off of three of Tinto’s original thirteen testable propositions in student departure. The external environment of the student (which you cite) which includes finances, support, work, family and community and the internal campus environment which includes academic communities, cost, institutional integrity, and institutional commitment to student welfare are the two most influential areas for the student’s initial commitment to the institution and their subsequent commitment. According to their work, “students with the personality trait of empathy tend to be more likely to depart from commuter colleges and universities.” Based on that research, the students desiring empathy are checking out and the ones left are predominantly working-adult learners who have little use for added burdens of attending classes at inconvenient times or being required to attend an in-person group seminar. Spending more productive time during the class itself which is what the adult learner struggles to adjust his/her schedule to meet would be more productive.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Wally

]]> By: Mike Offerman http://www.theother85percent.com/2009/01/community-colleges-are-%e2%80%9cover-empathetic%e2%80%9d-reactions-to-the-community-college-survey-of-student-engagement-ccsse/comment-page-1/#comment-2931 Mike Offerman Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:12:15 +0000 http://www.theother85percent.com/?p=114#comment-2931 Thanks for your comment, Lyle. Mike Thanks for your comment, Lyle.

Mike

]]> By: Lyle Seavy PhD http://www.theother85percent.com/2009/01/community-colleges-are-%e2%80%9cover-empathetic%e2%80%9d-reactions-to-the-community-college-survey-of-student-engagement-ccsse/comment-page-1/#comment-2930 Lyle Seavy PhD Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:01:20 +0000 http://www.theother85percent.com/?p=114#comment-2930 Mike, I agree with you, adult learners being forced to discuss after class or in contrived group experiences places far too much emphasis on one aspect of the learning experience. I recently had a student complain that I placed too much focus on writing because in his job he only used email he did not write. My response to that was simply to ask him to apply Bloom's Taxonomy to his criticism and tell me from an analitical point of view what it was that he was objecting to. He finally concluded that his concern stemmed form being forced out of his comfort zone and being asked to analyze, synthesize, and evaluate (in APA format). I do not think that emapthy for our adult learners lives in anyway limits the learning that occurs. Lyle Mike,
I agree with you, adult learners being forced to discuss after class or in contrived group experiences places far too much emphasis on one aspect of the learning experience. I recently had a student complain that I placed too much focus on writing because in his job he only used email he did not write. My response to that was simply to ask him to apply Bloom’s Taxonomy to his criticism and tell me from an analitical point of view what it was that he was objecting to. He finally concluded that his concern stemmed form being forced out of his comfort zone and being asked to analyze, synthesize, and evaluate (in APA format). I do not think that emapthy for our adult learners lives in anyway limits the learning that occurs.
Lyle

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